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108760-how-about-tying-challenges-instead-of-optionals-to-the-attunement-requirement
Content ---- ---- Are you serious? | |} ---- Change them to something more meaningful then? and also the do not get hit by tornado's is not an that much of an issue I've seen pug's getting the challenge right without trying that hard and still failing on timers. As i said the skullcanno challenges are a perfect example on how challenges should be as they make you use the fight's mechanics correctly and not just outheal and outdps the content like a headless chicken. The attunement process should prepare you for content that requires good utilization of fight mechanics and not just stand and spam and currently neither silver nor bronze medals actually do that. One just tells you it's ok aslong as you get enough deeps, the other just tells you it's ok as long as you get enough deeps, you skip all you can, just don't go to pee for the next 40min.... | |} ---- I'm probably as good as I can be by now and yet on average I run (or get pushed by the lightning) into the tornadoes at least once. There's also points where you lag and two strips of lightnings go trough at like 400% times the speed. As a healer, it's not much of a problem as I never let my team down by dying. However if challenges decided the attunements I would be forbidden (by myself) from entering dungeons (as I don't want to be a burden) and I don't think that that's fair. | |} ---- Lag happens. | |} ---- ---- If you're going to judge someone on making 1 mistake or have lagged, don't expect to see anyone in raids. Hell silver is far easier, meaning that if you do that you might as well reverse the progress for those that made it trough early, with requiring only silver and using all sorts of exploits and ways to cut down time. | |} ---- As i said if it's that much of an issue change the challenge, as said before SC is a great example and i don't see any challenge you con really blame "lag" on at least the bosses ones, and lag can always be blamed for everything yes it can happen once or twice, but as long as each challenge counts independently for the attunement completion its not an issue. Heck there are over 20 challenges in dungeons, make a list just like they did with world bosses and ask people to complete 15 or w/e arbitrary number you want this will allow you to complete the attunenment on your own pace, give you a reason to do dungeons you've already completed as they might still count for your attunement process and limit on how much you can blame lady lag on... | |} ---- That only works if you make challenges personal. Now if anyone from your party hits a tornado, everyone loses it. | |} ---- Yes thats the way to judge peoples "skills". Understanding mechanics and excuting them properly. And to achive silver you dont have to exploit anything and my groups never did. *shrug* The thing is with bad people failing in dungeons its only 4 others that suffer from that. In raids its 19. And thats why you dont wanna have those in raids. Bad people wont even get through the Archives. And well laggs happen. But then you have to try again. Anyways thats of topic. The important thing is that what the opener suggest is a really good thing! And I feel carbine should have considered that. Its too late now anyways cuz they anno0unced it allready and its free ga for everyone. | |} ---- So raids are personal? if you did "ok" then you get loot? no! a single mistake can and does wipe a raid, raids are not just about max healz and deeps they are about correctly using the game mechanics available in each fight which what most challenges also do. Let's also remove anything that can wipe a raid then too because "people lag" shall we? lets give people who dc kill credit because you know Comcast happens... I've done silvers "earlyon" haven't used a single exploit, raiding with a guild that i don't know anyone who used an exploit to get, and eventually got gold medals in dungeons since you know this is what people did in the beta, get it on normal when the cap was enforced, and get it on vet later. An attunement process that doesn't have any chances of failure teaches you nothing, it's just a time sink in that case just forget bronze(because no medal means that some one just forgot to pick a stem or release a lopp), and remove the world boss phase because other than spawn chasing it doesn't require you to do anything and send everyone straight to GA only to wipe and wipe again because they can't bloody aim and not hit eggs, can't walk and not hit eggs, can't move away from red, can't jump down on time, can't stack to reduce damage, can't stop DPSing during enrage, can't coordinate interrupts, so they'll just wipe on trash and gauntlets until it's nerfed to the ground. 40Man's are already at stake due to even top tier progression guilds complaining about player retention, now you want them to just nerf everything? a nerfed WS is a poor man's wow, WoW has better content to people who just want to raid in large groups, enjoy VOIP parties and get loot, and it is much better at it than WS is currently and probably ever will be. WS offered something else, a niche with harder content which players actually need to play together to overcome rather than bumrush it, what you are asking pretty much boils down to LFR, and "heroic raids" which WoW does better. | |} ---- And that's why I have 3/4 silvers. But try telling a pug to (before the fix) do the last boss of SC properly or to do the firs and the fire boss of SSM properly now. Now let's list problems that existed early on: Stormtalon: first boss could be made to not to do anything if you interrupt just before "kill the 4 adds" around him stage Aetheros throw back could have been negated with any jump back ability Jumping puzzle right after aetheros, no need to run to Stormtalon As long as the tank continues moving slightly towards the boss, the tank can't be hit, so effectively a DPS can tank Kel Voreth the hardest, mid boss - you could interrupt the chase phase or negate it entirely while standing on a rock if when he tethers everyone you leave the tank tethered, he doesn't do much, allowing the DPS to burst while the healer focuses on tank skipping all the optionals before the third boss - if everyone telleported home and telleported back right after the 2nd boss, all optionals would insta complete and it would also send you to the third boss graveyard, allowing you to save running time last boss - if you would stand right at the wall none of the blades could get you Skullcano: First optional can be perma stunlocked by interrupting its eating stage. No more pesky totems and short interrupt times! Last boss you could have done solely while standing on the platform, not taking damage from anything Swordmaiden First boss can still be kited into a courner, where the aoes won't do damage to anyone and if the tank tanks it away from others, the DPS can just safely DPS fire boss, most of the fire stages can be skipped by standing on the platform And that's only the ones that I know of. There were many many more and many today's "raiders" have used them. | |} ---- Look at my exploit list. Now take away the gear and revert each raider that might have used any of these back to dungeon attunement. Because if new players are to be punished for going trough the attunement later, then exploiters might as well be punished by their gear and progress being taken away. And to those saying that one member lagging kills the raid - look at who is the world's first for datascape. Guys did it on 17/20 with a few people that DCed entirely. | |} ---- ---- i think this is the whole issue. most people think this is raiding. it isnt. that also why people complain about silver timers. because they dont understand that attunement is progression and progression also can involve beein stuck and failing at the same thing very ( in terms of raids multipy very by at least 2 digit number) often. @mirta tellin pugs? well pugin in any game where you can pug is a stuipid idea in the first place. if you want to raid even more. i mean a pig part of raiding is to oraganize and group with others. silver medals were not very hard, yes challengeing but still not very hard if oyu were organized in groups. and your exploit list is very nice but most of the people i did silvers attempts with never heard of any of those until we read that they were fixed in the patchnotes. thats not an excuse. i mean with so many explouits how can anybody even be complaining about silvers? u just said it was free silvers, you can exploit everything. *shrug* i dont get it. point is timers are not a very good way in teaching the game mechanics. because now already peopel have misunderstood it. just tonight trying kv just for farming with top gear raiders. 3 prople cant even consistantly do kv even though they are raiding. so somehow they didnt get it. kv gold is even easier then stl gold.. how can guys raiding ga fail in kv ffs. :( i think people would benefit from thoses changes mentioned above. | |} ---- The only ridiculous challenge I have faced is Aethros' challenge to be honest. I've missed others before, but they are perfectly manageable. | |} ---- and to be honest I think that dropping the attunement to bronze is the wrong thing to do. But at the same time I'm against challenges being required, unless challenges are made personal. Some are just weird. Like healing the swordmaiden while you fight off the mobs comming at you. Like how is it a challenge even? Lol. | |} ---- I know all the exploits, the funny thing is that many of them would prevent you from completing challenges so... but NVM if you think that some of the "raiders" who completed the fights just for completion sake and are raiding now in DS can't get attuned otherwise you are somking some good stuff please share. Also i would love to see how they killed DS with 17/20 since it's a 40 man raid, some GA bosses can be killed with 16 people or less if you are good enough and that's good. And how lage can wipe a raid? well X89 big bomb lag = no raid, or at least no kill if you aren't 6/6 and totally decked since losing a shit ton of platforms cuts the fight. Lag also means no tank heals, no dispels, tank lags on some enrage mechanics means a dead tank, dps kills them selves, people getting knocked into eggs when other people burst them and the list goes on. If you are guilded and still 3/4 do not blame people who "exploited" for you being at 3/4, half of these exploits were closed fairly quickly, some of them like the blind boss in SSM were fixed once they've fixed the issues with telegraphs not being displayed during the hymn phase. You've also forgot the "exploit" on the shaman in which in the first week it didn't get IA stacks during the feeding phase since well it just was broken, and that's the only boss I've killed using an exploit which well was unavoidable since it was the only way to kill him, you didn't had to trigger it it just didn't stack. The rest of the exploits were either closed, or the fights were so *cupcake*ing trivial that you wouldn't bother like the Atheros one the kiting the adds part made the fight twice as long as it normal would untill you put them in that corner especially when you had to position everyone before killing it and on the old much shorter timer it meant it was better to do it properly than waste time and dps on add positioning. You are really collecting straws here for your man, instead of accepting that a multiplayer game should have both collective success and failure finding one challenge you think is impossible and throwing the entire idea of actually using mechanics correctly out of the window as a requirement for raiding. No it's not this is why i was mainly referring to the boss challenges, the challenge at the last boss is to CC and add at each blink which actually requires you to split your group and rotate positions as 2DPS and 1DPS/1Tank switch between the side with the healer and the one without it. That said the gauntlet challenge with healing the NPC isn't a bad "exercise" for healers it's good practice for paying attention to focus targets outside of your healing assignment such as the raid healer looking stepping in to heal the tank when needed and vice versa. | |} ---- ---- ---- | |} ---- I hear WoW is getting a new expansion go play it. wanting hard games, or games with different attitude towards content isn't a bad thing, some people play CoD some people play ARMA, some people play LoL some play HON/DOTA, some play Diablo 3 some play PoE. Asking for an MMO which is hard isn't a sin, it's not epeen stroking wish fulfillment either, it's just wanting to experience different content than what is present in other games. If i wanted more laid back content group content i would play WoW, if i wanted solo/story focused content i would play SWTOR, if it wanted harsh penalties and global loot i would play a perma death game. EQ content wasn't hard, it was just camptastic before the instant content was introduced(past WoW), camping for 8 hours to get a mob isn't my cup of tea, i also don't need to have to be forced to play a 15 year old game just because you feel entitled to get easy content while 90% of MMO's out there offer the same. | |} ---- ---- WoW doesn't charm me due to old combat, sorry. You're free to ask for whatever you want from your guild's raiders, but you're not free to ask for something that even the current raiders not all could do. So if you want to go all elitist, go to dungeons with your joiners and tell them that if they fail a challenge you're kicking them from the guild. But don't touch my game, thank you. | |} ---- that wasnt the openers suggestion. it was my opinion on the changes they anounced. i guess dr;tl .. what u are saying is just stuipid im sorry. more people finishing attunements faster is a bad thing. people cant even play the dungeons.. :( why cant people just enjoye and learn the game and quit wanting to rush everything. they will hit a cupcaking wall in ga anyways. | |} ---- Then let them. I don't like that change either, but it might be better to let them than to kill the game. | |} ---- ---- Wow... out of all of those, the only one I actually knew about was skipping trash to Stormtalon. My goodness... silvers would have been so much easier had we known all of these two months ago when we were going through the attunement process. I like the idea of adding challenges to the attunement process. The majority of them are a good measure of individual and party skill. Doing Bosun Octog challenge is a great way to test a group's ability to develop and execute a strategy. Thunderfoot would be good at testing individual awareness to pay attention to when you're supposed to do something as simple as jumping. | |} ---- ---- If they made the decision that they made, do you think they're flourishing? I'm all for hardcore, but most really hardcore MMOs shut down all of their EU and NA servers and left open only in Asian countries. | |} ---- Or how about delaying a your raiding by another week while you make sure everyone can do the content? you know whats happening now people boost, you can boost 1-2 people with a DPS, Tank, Healer that cleared and outgear the content easy. If you are boosting only one then that person can dirtnap on each boss fight and you still get silver, I've done that too much to get enough people to raid and the result isn't stellar. Making everyone pitchin in at least using mechanics ensures that everyone that got through it is capable of adapting to each fight and not just be a loot carrier. And not killing even optional bosses AKA named trash not to mention any boss if they even manage to get pass trash wont? let me guess you are PUGing dungeons and you expect to PUG raids too? P.S. CODEX is on exile Hazak it's a social guild and in top 10 so... | |} ---- I don't want your achievements; I want mine. I'm happy you find running a marathon, climbing a mountain and inventing "things" are achievement worthy to you. They may even socially help you get accepted into some rare, elite group of individuals. My achievements won't even help me make a new friend for the most part, but they're important to me and to Carbine as well since this is the direction they took to develop the game. You leave my achievements alone and I'll leave yours alone. | |} ---- ---- | |} ---- ---- ---- Each dungeon has boss mechanic challenges, a timed challenge and a "gauntlet" challenge.. KV: Mechanical: not getting into traps not getting hit by artillery strikes not getting the boss get an orb Gauntlet: not getting hit by lasers Timed: Killing 15 osuns STL Mechanical: getting all lightning strikes on adds not getting hit by storm Gauntlet: not getting hit by tornado's Timed: Killing what now? like 26 pell? SC: Mechanical: not letting the shaman eat jump mofo jump getting 10 stacks on the BOSON Blind Mordecai Gauntlet: get through the cave/don't get hit Timed: Kill Mordecai within 10 min of killing the quartermaster SSM: Mechanical: don't get more than 25 stacks of resonance don't get hit by the first tick of the "clover" AOE on the life boss avoid all fire waves(healers and tank do it every kill...) tag an add every time during the blind phase Gauntlet: heal her up to 100% Timed: kill the strain boss before the execution 21 challenges, make people complete 12 (just like they did with the world bosses) of those, heck it would surprise me if any one who cries now about attunement being too hard hasn't done so already in all their runs. What does it change from Bronze/Silver? well.... 1) you don't have to complete a run to gain completion - checked, which means if you gtg, some one else gtg, some one DC's, healer blames tank and leaves, tank blames healer and leave, DPS says noobs and leaves you still could gain something if you completed at least 1 challenge 2) doing the same dungeon more than once can add to your completion - checked, which means that you helping other people actually benefits you as well, not to mention that for PUG's currently there is ZERO incentive to redo silvers they've already got while doing attunement which lowers the accessibility of the content as less and less people wanna do it. 3) you learn how to deal with more demanding content - checked, OMG i need to deal with more than just kill shit as fast as i can now AMAGOD! But sure Bronze will fix everything, Bronze will all of a sudden make people being able to interrupt, dodge stuff, optimize their DPS/HPS/TPS, learn how now to dash out of heals etc. Bronze will also make all servers full, triple the amount of players world wide, and make raiding possible for all. Carbine already decided to make this a niche game when they decided to make an MMO with 40man raiding and harsh content which requires people to react to much more stuff thrown their way than any other MMO. Heck the 40man thing alone excludes it from most of the player base as managing raiding guilds of 60+ people is something even top guilds struggle with and why Raiding picked up by like a billion per-cent when Blizzard made WoW 10 and 25 man raids. Alienating the player base Carbine aimed at attracting isn't a good idea, you can't compete with WoW every one who tried failed, it's like competing with BF/COD in the (A)MMS FPS arena, you simply can't. | |} ---- fun fact Carbine don't know what makes an MMO a success, or haven't you noticed that in less than 3 months they have backtracked on almost every one of the pillars that they built wildstar upon. What im saying is you are the sort of blind fool that help lead carbine down the road of failure | |} ---- How is nerfing attunement = abandoning nearly all fundamentals of Wildstar? | |} ---- Is this a joke? Maybe they should use challenges... the fact that you think its near impossible and yet the groups I run with complete that challenge regularly is hilarious. | |} ---- You're puging SSM and complaining about raid attunement? Why does it even matter if you don't have a guild that can fun silvers? Its not like you're going to pug GA. Find a community of good players and this solves your issue. I've run countless silver dungeons in an effort to get my guild in GA... and now it is. | |} ---- 1. Not complaining. I expressed multiple times that silvers should stay 2. Complaining about challenges, as screwing it up for your group would be so easy, that I would stop running entirely. I like being a healer in order to be useful. If my skill level is bringing others down I have to take myself out of the content. Seeing how dungeons is something that I love the most, I would probably pass the taking care of the guild stick to someone else and just not log in or subscribe anymore. 3. Hazak has a whole business around pugging raids, as most guilds are at 17/20 or 16/20 raiders. | |} ---- *cupcake* me im about to transfer there. If the store would let me. ;) Anyways. They dont have to make every current challenge a requirement. Just those really easy ones like dodge simple shit. "Lightning Reflexes" or "The Sky Is Falling". Even with "your skill level" you can improve on thingy like that. And HAVE TO because if you cant do that and you "pug" a raid. That group will never pick you up again. ;) | |} ----